Curse

I Jonas I · Mar 08, 2010, 06:12 AM // 06:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

Obviously you have never played this bar

Sever Artery
Gash
Sun and Moon Slash
Bulls Strike
Auspicious Parry
Frenzy
Rush
Res Sig

12+1+1 Sword
10+1 Strength
8+1 tactics

For those of you who didn't understand this build, I will explain it to you. Auspicious Parry is a stance that lasts 8 seconds and gives you 3 adrenaline when you block the next attack. But if you are just using it to block attacks then you are doing everything wrong, because auspicious parry gives you adrenaline whenever the stance ends, regardless of it lasting the full 8 seconds or regardless of whether it actually blocked anything.

So you can basically camp your zealous set, and every 4 seconds use auspicious -> frenzy for serious adrenaline gain. Or do something similar if you want to actually chase things, only finish with rush after frenzy

So, cool, But if you, say, land a bulls strike from rush, and then hit auspicious and then 2 seconds later cancel it with any random cancel stance then you gain 3 adrenaline for free every 4 seconds. understand? Seriously the only thing that limits how much bleeding and deep wound that you can slop on people is how quickly you can switch targets.

Auspicious does have that added "linebacking me is sort of silly" affect, but that's not why you take the skill.

Greedy Gus · Mar 08, 2010, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Cool story, but as has already been said you're only netting 2 adren per parry. And instead of using zealous to pump prot strikes on a max strength dragon slash bar that gives more adren on a better cycle with a strong damage skill, you're mashing frenzy on recharge to make your block stance give enough +2adrens to be worthwhile on a bar that already spams adren attacks fine and doesn't do any +damage.

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 08, 2010, 07:23 AM // 07:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

So, cool, But if you, say, land a bulls strike from rush, and then hit auspicious and then 2 seconds later cancel it with any random cancel stance then you gain 3 adrenaline for free every 4 seconds. understand?

You can get the same effect but at much greater efficiency with Enraged Smash. Slower attack speed on your Bull's kind of sucks, though. The bar is actually really good (I run it on Axe), but I have yet to attempt playing it in GvG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Div

In this meta, the only viable axe elite is whirling axe

There are some euro teams running Eviscerate in pressure builds with Mark of Fury on obsmode. Fairly certain they're just trying new stuff rather than trying to play the most broken build, though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by neo-LD

Since there are still reasons to use Sword, there is no dire need to change anything.

This brings up a very important point. People not using a skill or template is never an acceptable reason to buff and/or overhaul that skill or template. That's precisely what got us into the state the game is currently in. Unplayed skills cannot break the game; only those that are too powerful can do so.

As such, I'd like to reiterate that in order for swords to see non-Conjure play, you need to make Dismember not strictly better than Gash, probably need to do something to armor levels, and need a metagame in which Restore Condition is not on every single team, whether that happens via nerf or metagame evolution. It really wouldn't hurt to hit Resilient again, either (compare it to Healing Breeze, which is already good enough to template onto split eles). Otherwise you're going to explode the game again.

distilledwill · Mar 08, 2010, 08:42 AM // 08:42

You are right, swords are a more limited medium than axes. But noone uses final thrust - if people want a power attack to follow their DW chain they go with Sun and Moon or sometimes Standing Slash (a personal favourite of mine).

Furthermore, Sprint is not that bad as an alternative to rush. If you are clever with frenzy its recharge does not hurt that much.

These are, however, just nitpicks. Overall, you are right, in the current meta what swords do is not as needed. It isnt as bad as the spike meta of a few months ago where warriors essentially were walking DW machines to assist spikes (with WE, dismember, and lots of shadow steps).
Swords are pressure, becausewith low adren attacks and with sun and moon as their final attack they gain adren quickly, their attacks don't hurt much but they recharge quickly. This is emphasised with the only truly viable sword build (as you say) being cripslash which causes a lot of pressure.

Krill · Mar 08, 2010, 03:20 PM // 15:20

The best solution I can think of for the Gash problem with swords is having the bonus damage conditional with bleeding.

Sword Attack. Deals +5...17...20 damage and inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if your target is Bleeding. Otherwise, this attack inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds).

So you still have the same synergy with Sever Artery and Criplslash, but now there's other possibilities for attack skill combos.

*lemming* · Mar 08, 2010, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Krill

The best solution I can think of for the Gash problem with swords is having the bonus damage conditional with bleeding.

Sword Attack. Deals +5...17...20 damage and inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds) if your target is Bleeding. Otherwise, this attack inflicts Deep Wound condition (5...17...20 seconds).

So you still have the same synergy with Sever Artery and Criplslash, but now there's other possibilities for attack skill combos.

Or you could just nerf Dismember.

Hugh Manatee · Mar 09, 2010, 03:27 AM // 03:27

If you're adrenaline's going to get nuked by final and you don't want to worry about a cancel, why not just use burst of aggression with charge or auspicious+rush or enraged charge? It's kind of fun to rocket around unloading at will even if you do have a down time.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 09, 2010, 12:16 PM // 12:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Jonas I

For those of you who didn't understand this build, I will explain it to you. Auspicious Parry is a stance that lasts 8 seconds and gives you 3 adrenaline when you block the next attack. But if you are just using it to block attacks then you are doing everything wrong, because auspicious parry gives you adrenaline whenever the stance ends, regardless of it lasting the full 8 seconds or regardless of whether it actually blocked anything.

So you can basically camp your zealous set, and every 4 seconds use auspicious -> frenzy for serious adrenaline gain. Or do something similar if you want to actually chase things, only finish with rush after frenzy

So, cool, But if you, say, land a bulls strike from rush, and then hit auspicious and then 2 seconds later cancel it with any random cancel stance then you gain 3 adrenaline for free every 4 seconds. understand? Seriously the only thing that limits how much bleeding and deep wound that you can slop on people is how quickly you can switch targets.

Auspicious does have that added "linebacking me is sort of silly" affect, but that's not why you take the skill.

That build is way better with Final Thrust and Sprint btw.

Sword warriors were crap before the last update, you have a lot more options now.

Bobby2 · Mar 09, 2010, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by IMMORTAlMITCH

Sword warriors were crap before the last update, you have a lot more options now.

Tactics had that much of an impact huh? Doubt it tbfh

Neo-LD · Mar 09, 2010, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Actually tactics has nothing to do with it, as most tactics based bars (Coward-Thrill-FearMe), for examples), are better run on Axe. The important change is that Primal now works with Sprint, not Rush, which fixes the old Thrust-Rush problem.

Bobby2 · Mar 10, 2010, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Euh. Thanks for pointing that out then.

Still, to hell with Primal >.>;

Corporeal Ghost · Mar 10, 2010, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

If you're adrenaline's going to get nuked by final and you don't want to worry about a cancel, why not just use burst of aggression with charge or auspicious+rush or enraged charge? It's kind of fun to rocket around unloading at will even if you do have a down time.

Simply put, Burst of Aggression is not as good as Frenzy. Your unload frequency will be way down since you can no longer use IAS to build. Your unload timing will be extremely predictable since it will always have to happen before you lose all of your adrenaline. And you lose a ton of utility on fleeing targets since you can't do things like cancel into IMS, land a Bull's, and unload. There is a reason Frenzy is the gold standard.

SFraser · Mar 24, 2010, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Barberous Slice + Gash + Dragon Slash.

The problem with swords has always been that the "finisher" is punishing to adrenaline, the spike chain damage without Final Thrust never looks so good, and it doesn't have the same utility as the hammer. The sword though is unmatched in adrenaline generation and attack speed. The above skill chain might not look very impressive but considering your are going to be putting it out every 1-2 seconds from start to finish of the battle, it starts to look very appealing.

I think this aspect of swords and warrior builds is over-looked. It doesn't matter which way you cut Axe or Hammer builds, you can't pull off a max damage strike every second hit and you certainly cannot stick at this rate constantly. Swords ARE the DPS pressure build. You can easilly work Dragon Slash into a constant adrenaline build at peak, and off-peak DPS is still going to be significantly higher. You are talking about a difference of 1/2 strikes of adrenaline with Dragon Slash off-peak, not the 4 strikes needed for Eviscerate under peak Axe skillbar conditions. With the Axe being slower, not to mention the Hammer attack speed, these are significant DPS issues.

The sword does lack a good spike chain or good finisher, it does lack the utility of the hammer, it does lack the unmodified DPS of both Axe and Hammer, but the sword has the fastest attack speed and it has Dragon Slash which is effectively a 5 strike max damage skill that will recharge every adrenaline skill on your bar. Whatever else you bring is a bonus.

Robster Lobster · Mar 24, 2010, 11:58 PM // 23:58

-Barbarous Slice is pretty bad outside of the old P/W bar (does that still work?), because you can't run it with Frenzy or a decent IMS.

-Swords and Axes have the same attack speed.

- Dragon Slash starts to suck against things like B-Surge, Blocking skills, or on splits.

kedde · Mar 25, 2010, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Dragonslash would suck nowadays.
It was decent back in the days with aegis because you could continually shut that down if you were good. That left a bsurge and a simple guardian to take care of 3-4 physical characters where you as the dslash wouldn't really take priority.

Now when everyone and their mother has blocks and bsurge needs even less thought, it'd just be shut down so much you wouldn't be doing enough to warrant running it.

Ariena Najea · Mar 25, 2010, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robster Lobster

-Barbarous Slice is pretty bad outside of the old P/W bar (does that still work?), because you can't run it with Frenzy or a decent IMS.

-Swords and Axes have the same attack speed.

- Dragon Slash starts to suck against things like B-Surge, Blocking skills, or on splits.

Basically this. A couple things were left out though...

4) If Dragon Slash misses, it takes a while to get it back up and you waste your investment. Other high-adrenaline skills work well because they are generally reserved for spikes where the target can be dis-enchanted, gotten out of stance, etc. In a pressure setting, you don't have this luxury.

5) You can't be "putting it out every 1-2 seconds from start to finish of the battle" because it takes a bit to charge the initial 10 adrenaline, and because without a stance (since you're using Barbarous Slice) it takes 1.33 seconds to charge a single strike of adrenaline assuming they aren't kiting, and FGJ nonsense is different in PvP.

6) Read above for assuming they aren't kiting, because you aren't going to be catching anyone without an IMS. Unless you have snares, but they're poor to rely on when your entire role depends on you attacking your target.

*) As for "lack[ing] a good spike chain or good finisher", remember Sun and Moon Slash and Final Thrust. The latter doesn't work at all with Dragon Slash, but S&M is terrific. You can't spike very well anyways without an IAS, but you can certainly load up Conjure on your proposed bar and deal a nice chunk with S&M.

SFraser · Mar 25, 2010, 02:53 AM // 02:53

I think the above poster is missing the point of a pressure setting.

You also seem to think all your "better" skills are immune to missing.

Sword speed + Dragon Slash + Cheap Adrenaline Skills = DPS. It's not rocket science. You run around applying a single deep wound and spiking people every 8 strikes with your Axe speed after you have rebuilt your head of steam. I'll do the same every 5 strikes with my sword speed after a constant torrent of adrenaline skills. That's a world of difference to a warrior.

Ariena Najea · Mar 25, 2010, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFraser

I think the above poster is missing the point of a pressure setting.

You also seem to think all your "better" skills are immune to missing.

Sword speed + Dragon Slash + Cheap Adrenaline Skills = DPS. It's not rocket science. You run around applying a single deep wound and spiking people every 8 strikes with your Axe speed after you have rebuilt your head of steam. I'll do the same every 5 strikes with my sword speed after a constant torrent of adrenaline skills. That's a world of difference to a warrior.

It's not that I don't understand pressure, I'm stating that Dragon Slash is unreliable in a pressure setting because every time it misses, it takes so long to get back up. "Better" skills are not immune to missing, but are more likely to be defended against by blocking stances (good players won't waste skills like Shield Bash on non-key skills except in emergencies) which are a large part of the current meta. This goes for all high-adrenaline skills, including Backbreaker, Eviscerate, and others. I'm not sure how you classify Cheap Adrenaline Skills, because 7 is pretty hefty on any bar without Enraging Charge.

With that said, you are mixing discussions on pressure and spiking. You are claiming that Dragon Slash is effective at pressuring, but are comparing your build's effectiveness to that of an Eviscerate build which is designed with spiking in mind. Most Axe builds use Dismember since it is cheap and effective, charging more quickly than Gash and without the requisite Bleeding. I'm still confused regarding your "Sword speed" note, because as was mentioned before my earlier post, Swords and Axes attack at the same rate. Furthermore, if you aren't using an IAS as you stated to take advantage of Barbarous Slice, a standard Axe build attacks much more quickly with Frenzy at a frequency of ~.9(s^-1) compared to the slow (1.33s^-1) without. For argument's sake, I'll assume you drop Barbarous for Sever Artery, which is better at pressuring due to the easier spread of Bleeding, and allows for cleaner spikes by allowing the use of an IAS. Deep Wound still takes two attacks on a Sword.

Then there is the problem of effective adrenal loss when an adrenal skill is activated. Consider that you are running with Sever Artery, Gash, and Dragon Slash and have 7 adrenaline charged in each skill (4 for Sever ofc). You obviously want to hit Dragon Slash as soon as possible for more adrenaline, but are applying Deep Wound to a target. You use Sever Artery, and when the skill activates and your attack begins, you lose one strike of adrenaline for your other skills. Assuming you hit, you gain this adrenaline back and return to your previous level. This process is repeated when you use Gash to apply the DW. The Deep Wound and attacks were there, but you made no net change in the adrenaline charge of Dragon Slash. This is another advantage of Dismember, in that by only requiring one attack to apply the DW, you can choose to either use another attack skill for extra damage, or effectively lose one less adrenaline for your time spent attacking. To put things together, with your originally suggested bar using Barbarous Slice and no IAS/IMS (since you have no decent non-elite, non-stance options as a Warrior), it will take approximately 15.66 seconds to initially charge Dragon Slash from 0 adrenaline, and approximately 7.98 seconds to charge Dragon Slash after gaining its 6 adrenaline on hit. It is assumed that you use the Barbarous/Gash combo one between each hit of Dragon Slash, and assumes that all of your attacks hit (unlikely due to blocks/blind/whatever), and assumes that your target decides not to kite you. With this unrealistic model that is biased towards the success of your build, that's a long time to take for low gains. The numbers improve when Sever Artery is used as the times change to ~10.6 seconds and 5.4 seconds with the use of Frenzy, which should prove my point above that Sever is better for primary Warriors at the very least.

Here is where this leaves us, running an efficient Dragon Slash bar pretty much means replacing Sun and Moon Slash with Dragon Slash on a standard Sword Template, which means the following:
Sever Artery | Gash | Dragon Slash | Bull's Strike | Optional | Frenzy | Rush | Res
When you compare it even to a nearly identical Cripslash build, you have slightly more damage, but a lot less utility. When comparing to a Whirling Axe build that uses more varied, low-adrenaline skills you can clearly see that the Whirling Axe build has a lot more utility, and doesn't suffer much of a damage loss in our fictional setting where nothing blocks and no one kites. In real situations where these both occur, this build pumps more damage due to crits on kitting foes, and can help remove blocking stances (which also hinder teammates).

TL;DR version: Dragon Slash is ineffective, and Swords have it rough.

Greedy Gus · Mar 25, 2010, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Dragon slash would play alright now, as decent as ever. Generally it was as a 4th adren attack so you still pump sever/gash/sun&moon's. Some people used the new thrill of victory in that slot and kept cripslash though.

Ec]-[oMaN · Mar 25, 2010, 07:55 PM // 19:55

D slash went extinct ever since FGJ got hit, and probably will stay as such.